indulging in food binge eating recovery

Indulging in Food, Part 2: It’s Okay, You are Okay

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This is the second part of a 3-part series on “indulging” in food. In my Part 1, I talked about the fact that there is no consensus on what it means to indulge. I gave you two tips for how to think about indulging: First, remember that indulging is not the same as binge eating, and second, avoid overly restrictive definitions of indulging (because a lot of perfectionism and guilt can arise when you define indulging too narrowly).

In this post, I’m going talk about what indulging may mean to you personally; and more importantly, I’m going to try to help you see that it is okay to indulge, and it does not mean something is wrong with you.

Exploring what indulging means for you in binge eating recovery and beyond

I don’t think it’s necessary to come up with an exact definition of what indulging means to you. Eating behaviors can’t always be neatly categorized. Eating is a balance; it can change from day to day, and certainly from person to person; and you get to make it work for you. You may already have your own thoughts about what indulging looks like in your life. Maybe you think about a holiday dinner, or having a meal at your favorite restaurant, or being on vacation and eating a variety of delicious foods you don’t normally eat, or maybe you think of having an extra serving of a food you love when you are already rather full. You may automatically think of eating sugary foods, like having a doughnut or two at the office, or a larger than usual piece of cake at a birthday party. It’s possible you think of healthy foods as well, like eating a big serving of your favorite organic vegetables, or a large, juicy grass-fed steak cooked just the way you like it, or succulent seasonal fruits that you love.

As long as you know indulging is not the same as a binge, and is not defined as “any time you eat imperfectly,” that gives you a wide range from which you can view indulgent eating. If you were to check the dictionary, the definitions of “indulge” are varied. Here are just a few: to allow oneself to enjoy the pleasure of….to yield to an inclination or desire…to satisfy or gratify. Using only the textbook definitions, you could theoretically indulge in any eating opportunity, because you could think of it being more about the experience of pleasure and satisfaction than the amount or type of food. During any normal meal or even a small snack, you can certainly allow yourself to take pleasure in it, and you can feel satisfied and gratified. Eating is pleasurable and food should be enjoyed.

However, when leaders in the field of eating disorders say, “it’s okay to indulge sometimes,” they typically mean it’s okay to get more-than-normal satisfaction and gratification from eating. So, in the context of promoting recovery from binge eating, bulimia, anorexia, and EDNOS, indulgence usually refers to eating experiences that are at least a little outside of what you’d consider normal food pleasure. And that’s the general standard I’m using when talking about “indulging” in this blog series.

Defining indulging in a practical but highly individual way

Using that perspective, if we were to come up with a broad, overarching view of indulgent eating, it would be something like this: Taking more pleasure in food than you normally do, or more pleasure than you’d consider normal (and this description is given with the assumption that it’s okay to take pleasure in your food whenever and whatever you eat.)

If you want to explore what indulging means to you personally, take a look at what you believe normal eating is for you (and if you aren’t eating normally yet, look for examples in other people who you consider to be normal eaters); and then, if you decide to take more pleasure in food than that baseline of “normal,” that’s what you can see as indulging. If “normal” is enjoying most meals and snacks, experiencing pleasure in eating reasonable amounts (of both healthy foods and some unhealthy foods as well); then indulging could be thought of as enjoying too much of  certain foods that are either healthy or unhealthy…but you’ll probably be more likely to think it’s indulgence when the foods are unhealthy.

For example, you might eat one average-sized scoop of ice cream for dessert sometimes and you consider that normal eating pleasure, so indulging might be having a two-scoop serving with toppings, which leaves you a little too full. Normal food pleasure might be going to a restaurant and enjoying every bite of your favorite meal, and indulging might be having an appetizer and wine before the meal, still enjoying your meal, and possibly even having dessert afterward.

I realize words like “too much” or “normal,” and even “healthy” and “unhealthy” are open to interpretation, but that’s okay, because how we eat and how we indulge in food is highly individual, and having the freedom to decide what it means to you is empowering.

Why does all of this talk about indulging matter to binge eating recovery?

Because I want you to take the advice that “it’s okay to indulge” to heart. I want you to believe it, and to believe it requires understanding it. I want you to know that quitting the binge eating habit never means quitting the pleasure of eating, and it also doesn’t mean giving up indulging in food. If you think it does, it makes recovery seem much more difficult, because it requires you to live up to unrealistic standards and it fosters a rigid mindset around food.

From a purely nutritional perspective, is indulging an ideal form of eating? Probably not. Is indulging optimally healthy when we look at it only from a physiological standpoint? Again, probably not, because even if you are indulging in healthy foods, too much of anything usually isn’t nutritionally ideal. But might indulging sometimes be good for your mental health and stress level, and benefit you more overall than always having tight control over your portions and the types of foods you allow yourself? Absolutely, especially if you are learning to overcome a “dieting” mindset.

Indulging doesn’t mean anything has gone wrong

Not only is it okay to indulge, YOU are okay if you indulge. Indulging in food is not a sign that you are off-track in recovery from binge eating. 

Because binge eating activates a more-than-normal pleasure process in your primitive brain, and gives you a temporary reward, in some ways it may seem similar to indulging. So when you are trying to quit binge eating and you find yourself indulging, your inclination may be to think that you are not okay, and that indulging is just another sign that something is wrong with you, and you will never be normal around food. That is not the case.

When you indulge, simply recognize it, be aware of it, label it as “indulging” if that helps you, and then just continue your recovery – always keeping your intention and commitment not to binge. You can even get excited when you avoid following an indulgence with a binge. Turn your mindset from “I didn’t eat perfectly, I indulged…something is wrong with me” to a more empowering thought like, “Yes, I may have indulged…but I’m breaking the connection between normal indulgence and binge eating.”

Another benefit of believing it’s okay to indulge and you are okay when you indulge is that it helps cement the fact that you are not restrictively dieting. It helps your body realize you are going to feed it and food pleasure is allowed. This can reduce the binge urges that are rooted in the survival drives, which are activated by deprivation.

Like I mentioned at the end of the last post, I’m not saying indulging too much is a good thing; I’m not saying you should never try to curb indulgence if it’s causing a problem for you (which I’ll talk about in the next post).  But, I am saying that when you do indulge, it’s very helpful to avoid self-criticism and avoid thinking you are flawed and broken, and instead remember that it’s okay and you are okay.

Go to Indulging in Food, Part III

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More help:

If you want extra guidance as you work on the recovery goals of the Brain over Binge approach, here are some resources for additional support:

Brain over Binge Course – Self-paced online lessons (plus an app) for only $18.99/month. Includes over 130 tracks to listen to that give you the information and answers you need as you end binge eating.

Group Coaching – Get help from coach Julie and support from others who are overcoming this habit. Includes a forum that is open 24/7, group coaching calls, mindfulness resources, plus course access.

One-on-one Coaching – Book a 45-minute private session with coach Julie or Kathryn. You will learn to change your thinking, uncover what is holding you back, and get on a path to complete freedom from food issues.

Indulging in food binge eating

Indulging in Food, Part I: Reality Check

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I’m starting a 3-part blog series on indulging in food. This is a multifaceted topic and I find that it leaves many recovering binge eaters confused. So, I’m going to do my best over the next 3 posts to talk about what it might mean to indulge in food, when it may become problematic, and how to indulge in a way that works for you personally.

Indulging is not bingeing

I say what it might mean to indulge in food because there is no exact definition, but one thing I want to make clear at the outset is that indulging in food is not the same as binge eating. Binge eating is a much more harmful, life-altering, and out-of-control-feeling behavior, whereas indulging is in the range of normal eating behaviors and it’s typically not a problem at all.

What does “it’s okay to indulge” really mean?

You’ve likely heard the phrase “it’s okay to indulge sometimes” (or some variation of that phrase) while trying to end your binge eating habit. This is a common message in the eating-disorder-recovery community, and you’d probably hear some form of “it’s okay to indulge” from any expert in the field. Additionally, most nutritionists, health coaches, fitness trainers, doctors, and weight loss specialists tend to give similar advice, even to people without eating disorders. But, what the advice actually means can be very different from expert to expert; and how the advice is interpreted can be different from person to person.

Because there is no definitive consensus on what is just eating and what is indulging, it will be helpful to put some thought into what indulging means to you. In this post, I’m going to talk more about how not to define indulging than how to define it, which I’ll dive into in the next post. You already know not to define indulging in the same way you define binge eating, but I also want to encourage you not to define indulging with a dieting mindset.

The dieting mentality and its narrow view of indulgence

The primary goal of this post is to help you avoid creating an overly rigid and strict definition of indulging in food.

If you are a dieter, or former dieter, or you are heavily involved in the fitness, weight loss, or even nutrition industries, you may define indulging very narrowly. You may consider having anything unhealthy to be indulging. You may consider one bite of a dessert to be indulging. You may consider eating something off of your restrictive diet plan to be indulging. These strict definitions of indulgence are definitely promoted in the dieting/fitness/weight loss industries, where it’s common for people to talk about “cheat meals” or “cheat days” where dieters indulge in foods that are not typically “allowed.”

I think it’s so important to do a reality check on these dieting-based definitions of indulging in food. If you are wrapped up in that community, it’s helpful to step back and realize that these “cheat meals” or indulgences for a dieter would simply be considered eating to the rest of us. For example, the one bite of a dessert indulgence for a dieter may simply be the first bite of a normal-sized dessert for a non-dieter; the dieter’s indulgence of eating anything unhealthy may simply be a normal eaters’s decision to have convenience food when they are hungry and busy; the dieter’s indulgence in something off of their restrictive plan simply doesn’t apply to someone without a restrictive plan.

When guilt creeps in: a personal example

If you are enmeshed in the dieting world, it may be challenging for you to loosen up your definitions of indulging, but I encourage you to try. The reason for this is: overly strict definitions can actually backfire, causing you to have a lot of guilt surrounding your eating, an all-or-nothing mindset, and more urges to binge. I’ll begin to explain this by way of a personal example…

I was recently reading an article from a health writer and mom who talked about allowing her children to indulge in raisins every once in a while. I laughed a little when I read this, because my children would never consider raisins an indulgence. They might consider raisins to be something kind of healthy that I try to get them to eat sometimes. Although I certainly admire someone who feeds their children well, it was clear that my ideas and the writer’s ideas about letting our kids indulge were very different. After being slightly amused when reading about the raisins, another feeling came over me: guilt. I felt like I couldn’t possibly live up to those standards, and although this story is not specifically about binge eating, it made me think about how this type of guilt affects people in recovery. Because I keep a balanced mindset surrounding food, my guilty thoughts about the raisins didn’t last long; but guilty thoughts can take a strong hold in binge eaters, especially those who have overly rigid definitions of indulgence.

Avoiding the guilt-binge spiral when you indulge

Even if you tell yourself the common and sound advice that “it’s okay to indulge,” if you define indulging as, for example, having two bites of chocolate, then you are likely to start feel guilty when you take a third bite. If you go on to eat two squares, you might feel like you’ve failed in some way, and if you go on to eat five squares, you might begin having binge thoughts like, “you’ve already blown it, so you might as well eat all of the chocolate…and other desserts in the house…and then start over tomorrow.” You can dismiss those thoughts and urges to binge, but it also helps if you don’t feel unnecessary guilt for having the five squares of chocolate in the first place. A normal eater might consider five squares of chocolate to be a rather typical indulgence, and if it’s high-quality dark chocolate, they may consider five small squares to be an antioxidant-rich, pretty-healthy snack.

Seeing that there is more than one way to view certain foods, in certain amounts, in certain situations, can help you break old thought patterns that are holding you back from feeling free around food. I’m not suggesting that you relax all of your standards, and never try to eat healthy, and be okay with eating too much, too often. I’m only suggesting that you do a reality check on how you define indulging, so that you don’t encourage the harmful restrict/binge cycle. If your definitions of indulgence are based on a dieting mindset, you are much more likely to think you’re over-indulging and then feel guilty, when that’s not necessary, because you’re probably just eating or indulging in a normal way that truly is okay.

Go to Indulging in Food, Part II

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More help:

If you want extra guidance as you work on the recovery goals of the Brain over Binge approach, here are some resources for additional support:

Brain over Binge Course – Self-paced online lessons (plus an app) for only $18.99/month. Includes over 130 tracks to listen to that give you the information and answers you need as you end binge eating.

Group Coaching – Get help from coach Julie and support from others who are overcoming this habit. Includes a forum that is open 24/7, group coaching calls, mindfulness resources, plus course access.

One-on-one Coaching – Book a 45-minute private session with coach Julie or Kathryn. You will learn to change your thinking, uncover what is holding you back, and get on a path to complete freedom from food issues.

don't binge resolutions

Don’t Binge When You Break A Resolution

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If you have a goal to stop binge eating in the new year, I want to give you some advice that I hope will help you keep that resolution.

My advice is twofold:

1.) Prioritize stopping binge eating   

2.) Don’t connect stopping binge eating to your other resolutions.

Let’s talk first about prioritizing your goal of ending the binge eating habit.

Stop Binge Eating First Before Working on Other Eating Resolutions

Of the unhealthy eating habits you may have (we all have some!), binge eating is probably creating the most pain in your life, and it’s the biggest factor holding you back from pursuing other goals or simply being more at peace. With that in mind, I would suggest setting aside your other eating-and-weight-related goals and keeping your focus on stopping the binges. This helps you avoid putting too much pressure on yourself to eat exactly “right,” and helps you avoid judging your eating too much or falling into an all-or-nothing mindset. Once you don’t binge anymore, and you are confident that you won’t binge in the future, you can make other healthy improvements to your eating, if that’s what you want.

If making sure you don’t binge is your top priority, then if you eat foods that are unhealthy, you can still be excited that you didn’t binge. If you overeat, instead of being upset with yourself, you can be proud that you didn’t follow your overeating with a binge. If you find yourself grazing when you are upset, you can praise yourself for not going into a binge during or after the grazing. If your weight does not change in the way you want it to, you can celebrate the fact that you can be binge-free at any weight, and know that a number on the scale doesn’t change your commitment to walk away from your harmful binge eating habit.

Prioritizing stopping binge eating also means committing not to diet.

If you’ve been following my blog and podcast, you know that restricting your food intake is a way to end up binge eating. Two of my recent podcasts focused on helping you avoid restrictive dieting in the New Year (and always): Episode 30: No Resolutions to Diet and Episode 33: Challenging Your Motivations to Diet.

You might have some anxiety about making stopping binge eating your most important resolution, because you may be thinking…”What if I do binge? Does that mean I’ve failed at my top priority?” Absolutely not. Acting on an urge to binge does not mean that ending the habit is suddenly less important to you, and it certainly doesn’t mean you should give up. Because quitting is your top priority, then if you do binge, you are in great position to learn from what happened, and move forward. You can look at what thoughts led you to follow the urge, decide what you will do differently next time, and commit to continuing to prioritize your goal of quitting.

To illustrate this, I want you to imagine that your priority is to learn to play guitar. If you think about this goal, it’s apparent that you would not quit if you played some wrong notes. The process of learning is your priority. Because your goal is important to you, you can seek support when you need it, and make adjustments as you see fit, and you can do the same with binge eating until you are completely binge-free. With the guitar goal, you may decide you need a private instructor, and with binge eating, you may decide you need a one-on-one coach (if you want help implementing the Brain over Binge approach, you can schedule a 1:1 session with Brain over Binge coach Julie or myself).

Don’t Binge After Breaking a Resolution Not to Binge, or After Breaking Other Resolutions

If you do break your resolution not to binge with a binge, that doesn’t give you a reason to keep repeating the destructive behavior. A binge does not need to turn into binges. When I was bulimic, my response to a binge was often this: “well, now all is lost, so I might as well keep going,” and I’d end up binge eating for days at a time. I know this experience is common; but when stopping binge eating becomes your top priority, you can minimize the impact of any slips that you do have. For a podcast about getting back on track after a binge, listen to Episode 17: What if You Binge During Recovery? 

It’s also important not to break other resolutions with binges, and this brings me to my 2nd piece of advice for stopping binge eating in the new year, which is: Don’t connect stopping binge eating to your other resolutions.

Many of you will take my suggestion to make stopping binge eating your only goal as it relates to your eating and weight, but if you are like some of the women and men who I’ve worked with, you may be thinking something like this: “Yes, stopping binge eating is my top priority…but I also need to eat healthy…and lose this extra weight…and I should stop eating gluten…and I think I need to quit sugar…and I want to commit to only eating when I’m hungry…and I need to end all overeating as well.”

As much as I can tell you to put aside those goals for now, I know that they may still be in the back of your mind.  Even if you plan to work on those goals in the healthiest, least-restrictive way possible, and you are committed to eating adequately, those other goals can still become connected in an unhealthy way to your goal of stopping binge eating (and therefore interfere with your goal of stopping binge eating).

What tends to happen is this: You break your other eating resolutions—as most people do sometime in January—and then you have thoughts saying, “you’ve failed, so you might as well binge.” So, instead of just breaking your other resolutions, you break those resolutions and go on to binge. Maybe you’ve experienced this before, but let’s say you resolve to avoid gluten, and then the first time you eat some bread, you think something like this: “See, this is evidence that I don’t have any self-control, so I might as well give up, eat everything, and start over tomorrow.” Then the next time you eat gluten, this cycle repeats.

Or, let’s say you resolve to eat only when you are hungry, and then the first time you decide to have dessert after an already satisfying meal, you feel that “all is already lost” and that “there is no reason to dismiss urges to binge”. Then, the next time you eat when you aren’t hungry, you do the same thing, so that you end up frequently breaking your resolutions with binges.

What if you simply broke your healthy-eating resolutions, and stopped there?

What if you ate gluten, but still stayed committed to avoiding binges? What if you always dismissed binge urges after eating when you weren’t hungry? What if you didn’t lose a single pound in the new year, and never used that as a reason to binge? Breaking your resolutions would cause so much less damage, and in many cases, absolutely no damage, and you’d stay on a path to a better life—even with all of your imperfections.

Think of the millions of people who simply break their resolutions and don’t go on to do something more harmful afterward. It’s difficult to give up a food or food group altogether, or to follow exact parameters for eating, which is why not many people manage to consistently eat in an ideal way. Plus, eating in an ideal way is different for each person, so you don’t want to create a scenario where your ability to binge or not binge depends on your ability to follow or not follow difficult food rules—rules that may not even be right for you personally.

If any of your friends told you that they broke their New Year’s resolution to eat healthy or to avoid a certain food, would you tell them that “all is lost” and they “might as well binge”?  Of course not!  But, somehow binge eaters tend to believe this same logic when it comes from their own thoughts. These type of thoughts are neurological junk from the lower brain—the part of your brain that is trying to maintain your binge eating habit.  If you can learn to dismiss these binge-encouraging thoughts, you are well on your way to erasing the habit.

I’m not saying you can never decide to make healthy changes in the way you eat; but, I am saying that whether or not you are “successful,” you never have to binge.  And that is a huge success!

It’s the same with any type of resolution, even if it’s completely unrelated to eating. I think it’s wonderful to create goals for yourself in other parts of your life, so that you can turn your focus away from food and weight obsessions. However, even if you don’t measure up to the vision you have for yourself in the new year, and even if you never accomplish what you intend to, you never have to follow thoughts that say “you might as well binge,” and you can become binge-free for good.

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I wish you all a safe and healthy new year. Thanks for continuing to read the blog, listen to the podcast, and receive the newsletter. 

More help:

If you want extra guidance as you work on the recovery goals of the Brain over Binge approach, here are some resources for additional support:

Brain over Binge Course – Self-paced online lessons (plus an app) for only $18.99/month. Includes over 130 tracks to listen to that give you the information and answers you need as you end binge eating.

Group Coaching – Get help from coach Julie and support from others who are overcoming this habit. Includes a forum that is open 24/7, group coaching calls, mindfulness resources, plus course access.

One-on-one Coaching – Book a 45-minute private session with coach Julie or Kathryn Hansen. You will receive help changing your thinking, uncovering what is holding you back, and getting on a path to complete freedom from food issues.

Challenge cultural body messages

Challenge Cultural Body Messages (with Ayurveda)

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I often speak out against restrictive dieting, because not only does it promote binge eating, it is a harmful practice that is not effective in helping you reach and maintain a healthy weight. Giving up restrictive dieting does not mean giving up health or fitness, in fact, it’s quite the opposite. When you stop restrictive dieting (and binge eating), you can focus on nourishing yourself – not starving yourself, and moving your body in a way that feels good – not punishing. You can learn to honor your physical signals of hunger and fullness, and you will start to realize that foods you truly enjoy are also the ones that fuel you in a good way.  Your eating will never be perfect, nor should it be, but you will discover a balance that feels natural and authentic and works for you.

Typically, at this point in the discussion, I say something like this:

“…and your body will find its natural weight, that is effortless to maintain.”

And, that’s where some confusion and anxiety may set in for you.  You may be thinking…What is my natural weight?…or…If I don’t control my weight, won’t it just keep increasing?  You may desire to look a certain way and believe you must do specific things to achieve your body goals.  You may believe that it’s your job to shape and sculpt your body into what you want it to be.

There is definitely a cultural message in the US (and likely a similar one in your own country) that we can make our bodies look the way we want them to look (and we are constantly presented with products or services to help with that endeavor).  So, when you hear someone like me or another eating disorder recovery coach or therapist say to “honor your natural weight,” or “trust your own body to regulate your size/shape,” or that “your body is different and unique;” it stands in stark contrast to the overarching cultural message.

To be able to convince yourself to give up restrictive dieting and harmful weight “controlling” practices, it can be very important to challenge the cultural body messages you receive. 

One helpful way to do that is to seek alternative perspectives, especially from other cultures; because in many other cultures, there is a vastly different “ideal” than in the US (or your own country), or it is simply a given that all of us are different – the shape of our bodies included – and there is no shame in that.

I learned about a useful and enlightening perspective on body size a few years ago, and I thought it would be helpful to share it here.  You may have heard of this before because it is common, but even so, I hope you will find revisiting it to be refreshing and empowering.

This perspective is from Ayurveda, which is the ancient Indian science of life (Ayur = life, Veda = science or knowledge).  This science developed 5,000-6,000 years ago and has been handed down through generations. Ayurveda is a holistic science of health, which focuses on maintaining a balanced state in the body and mind.

A key component of Ayurveda, which relates to the topic of this post, is the three Doshas: Vata, Pitta, and Kapha. Doshas are the biological energies that make up the human body and mind (Vata=air/space, Pitta=fire/water, Kapha=earth/water). Each individual has all three Doshas present, but typically one or two dominate.  The dominant Dosha(s) determine someone’s physiological traits, as well as his/her personality, likes, and dislikes.

Based on your dominant Dosha(s), it’s just a given that you will have a certain body type.  Here are the basic body types for each Dosha in Ayurveda:

Vata:   Thin build

Pitta:   Athletic build

Kapha:   Solid build

Vata Pitta Kapha

Other physiological and psychological traits are associated with these Doshas, beyond body type.  For example, when the Dosha is balanced, Kapha is associated with love and compassion; Vata with creativity; Pitta with intelligence. Vatas tend to be more cold (in temperature), dry, and fast moving; Pittas are more warm, oily, and have a fiery personality; Kaphas are more smooth and soft and calm.

In Ayurveda, body and mind differences are embraced, and it’s inherently obvious that you can’t change your basic composition.  A Vata type will never be a Kapha or Pitta and vice versa. By understanding your composition, you can make the best of it and live a healthy, balanced life; but you aren’t going to fundamentally change who you are, nor would you want to.

You are better off using your energy to make the most of your own unique set of traits.

There is no such framework in our culture.  In the US, someone who is a balanced and healthy Kapha type might be labeled “lazy” or told they need to lose weight.  Someone who is a balanced and healthy Vata type might be told they are not curvy (or muscular) or “sexy” enough.  Wouldn’t it be better if we could embrace our differences, and not all try to fit into one mold of what our culture considers ideal?

Peering into other cultures and seeking alternative perspectives about your physical makeup is a powerful way to help yourself overcome body image issues.

You certainly do not have to have a great body image to stop binge eating, but it does help your overall quality of life to accept your own body.  Furthermore, being accepting of your unique body and your own natural weight will help you give up the futile practice of restrictive dieting. When you honor your body and give it enough food, you stay out of that lower-brain-driven, “survival” state that fuels binge eating.  Then, you can more easily dismiss any binge urges that remain, and the destructive habit can fade from your life.

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More help:

If you want extra guidance as you learn to accept your body and give up binge eating, here are some resources for additional support:

Brain over Binge Course – Self-paced online lessons (plus an app) for only $18.99/month. Includes over 125 tracks to listen to that give you the information and answers you need as you end binge eating.

Group Coaching – Get help from coach Julie and support from others who are overcoming this habit. Includes a forum that is open 24/7, group coaching calls, mindfulness resources, plus course access.

One-on-one Coaching – Book a 45-minute private session with coach Julie. She will help you change your thinking, uncover what is holding you back, and get on a path to complete freedom from food issues.

© Copyright 2026 Kathryn Hansen