Food Noise, Part IV: Eating Foundations for More Stability and Ease (with Marcus Kain)
This is Part IV of a blog series that is based on the transcripts of my podcast series on Food Noise, which includes these 4 episodes:
Ep. 198: Food Noise, Part 1: Bingeing is Not a Solution
Ep. 199: Food Noise, Part 2: The Effect of the Food Environment (You’re Not Broken or Powerless)
Ep. 201: Food Noise, Part 3: Mindset Shifts for More Peace and Self-Trust
Ep. 203: Food Noise, Part 4: Eating Foundations for More Stability and Ease (with Marcus Kain)
If you haven’t read Part I, Part II, and Part III yet, I recommend that you do that when you can because they lay the foundation for this discussion.
This Part IV post will give you some fundamental guidance in terms of eating that can help you reduce your baseline level of food noise. As I mentioned in Part III, eating enough food is foundational to overcoming binge eating and also learning to manage food noise.
I have a special guest for this discussion, Marcus Kain. Marcus overcame his own 15-year eating disorder struggle, and now he helps others recover and also supports people in changing their relationship with fitness and training. I always look forward to our discussions because he brings so much thoughtfulness, compassion, and balance.
Before we get started, I want to quickly recap the first three parts of this Food Noise series because this discussion builds on them.
In Part I, I focused on what I believe is the most essential recovery truth related to food noise, which is that food noise does not make bingeing inevitable, bingeing is never a solution to food noise, and bingeing is also a huge factor that contributes to food noise. In Part II, I talked about the effect of the modern food environment and the bigger cultural context that can amplify food noise, with the goal of helping you feel less self-blame when food noise shows up while also not slipping into a powerless mindset. Then in Part III, I shared some mindset-based solutions—ways to relate to food noise differently so that it feels less threatening, less personal, and less disruptive to your life, and so that you can have much more freedom from it.
In Part IV, we’re shifting toward the food itself. Marcus and I will give you some general guidance that you can use to help yourself eat in ways that can calm food noise rather than exacerbate it. This discussion is not about giving you a specific meal plan or any rules. It’s about supporting you as you learn to nourish your body according to what you uniquely need.
The main topics we’re going to talk about are food quantity, timing, and food type, and how you can use those basics to help create more stability and ease. When the body feels safer and when appetite is more regulated, it’s so much easier to apply mindset tools and other strategies that decrease food noise. We do discuss calories briefly and generally. If that’s a sensitive topic for you, please read in whatever way makes the most sense for you right now. You can skip that section or come back to it at another time.
What follows is a lightly edited transcript of my conversation with Marcus on the podcast. I’ve cleaned up some of the natural filler and repetition that comes with spoken conversation, but I’ve kept the substance of our discussion intact.
Exploring the Role of Eating in Food Noise
Kathryn: Marcus, I’m really excited to have you back. I think this may be your fourth time joining me on the podcast.
Marcus: I know. I feel so privileged. It’s really nice to be a recurring guest.
Kathryn: I’ve gotten so much great feedback about your previous discussions, and I think I’ve been on your podcast four times, so it’s a really great back-and-forth that we have. I think you add so much value and so many insightful ideas, so I’m really excited to dive in today.
Marcus: Likewise. I was just on a client call a few minutes ago, and when I said, “I’m just about to talk to Kathryn from Brain over Binge,” they were like, “Oh my God, tell Kathryn she changed my life. Her book is amazing.”
Kathryn: That’s so great.
Marcus, you’re my special guest for part four of my Food Noise series, and this is a topic that we actually discussed the last time you were here. We discussed food noise, and we also dove into the GLP-1 medications and some nuanced conversations around that.
This is going to go a little deeper, and it’s also going to complement the other three parts of my series. I’m really excited to talk to you about the eating part of food noise—solutions in terms of how we eat that can help bring us some relief, some stability, and more feelings of peace around food.
I’ll let you give a few initial thoughts, and then we’ll dive into the topics we want to cover.
Marcus: What I’ve noticed working with people over the last six years, specifically with binge eating, is that when it comes to food noise, approaches that go hard to one end of the scale or hard to the other end in terms of restriction, freedom, permission, and all that kind of stuff seem to increase food noise for people and make it more difficult.
On one end of the scale, on the hyper-restrictive side, maybe you’re eliminating entire food groups or eliminating most of your meals and trying to have one meal a day or two meals a day.
But then on the other end of the scale, I’ve actually worked with a lot of people who struggled with that broad, sweeping advice of, “Just eat whatever you want, whenever you want. Don’t give it a second thought. Do that until you’re sick of it and you’ll be okay.” I work with a lot of people who have not found success with that approach.
So, in my experience at least, I’ve noticed that food noise seems to increase the further we get from center when it comes to the things that we try to implement and practice.
Kathryn: That’s a really great point to start out with because I’ve definitely noticed the same thing.
Everyone is so different. We’re not going to tell you, “This is the way you need to eat to get rid of your food noise,” because there is no one way for each person. We’re going to give you some ideas and strategies to help you find that middle ground for yourself, not go to either extreme, and find a way of eating that maybe lowers your baseline level of food noise.
We’re going to have some desire for food, of course. We’re humans. We’ve talked before about wanting food and liking food being part of the normal human experience. But when it becomes very obsessive, when it becomes intrusive, and when it takes over your life, that’s when you need to look at some things and determine solutions. The way you eat and the way you approach eating is one way to help yourself with food noise.
We’re going to talk about food quantity, food timing, and food types. And in talking about food types, we’ll also address the question of whether or not you should eliminate any foods to help with food noise. There’s a lot of advice out there saying, “If you just don’t eat sugar,” or, “Don’t eat dairy,” or, “Don’t eat gluten, then you’ll never struggle with food noise.”
So we’re going to dive into that very nuanced topic. Most things we talk about are nuanced, and I really like your balanced perspective on all of this.
Food Quantity: Are You Eating Enough?
Kathryn: Let’s start with quantity. That’s a big one because if we’re starving—and I know both of us experienced this in our own lives—if you are not eating enough, your brain and body are going to make food the ultimate priority.
Food noise is that adaptive response. Your brain is saying, “You need to eat. You need to eat.” Everywhere you go, you think about food. You see food, and that is because you are starving. In order to have any chance of having a peaceful relationship with food and reducing food noise, you have to be eating enough.
Marcus: One hundred percent.
There are a couple of ways that I explain this or navigate this with people, and like you said, everyone is so different. I want to say that things like calorie counting and tracking are typically associated with a higher risk of disordered eating and sometimes increased food noise and all this kind of stuff. But I do occasionally work with people who seem to be okay with tracking. Maybe they’re an athlete. Maybe they’ve been doing it a long time.
There are two ways that I approach deciding how much is enough and what we should eat.
For some people who find it okay to have just a general awareness of macros or calories, it can be helpful to look at approximately how much we’re shooting for per meal—not with the goal of tracking forever, but to ask: What does that quantity of food actually look like on a plate?
A lot of the time, I end up having conversations with people where I’m saying, “This is about the amount that you maybe should be eating for breakfast, lunch, or a mid-afternoon snack.” The most common feedback I get is not, “Oh my God, that’s not enough food.” It’s, “That looks like so much.” I’m quite often telling people, “You actually need a bit more than what you think you do.”
But I know that for a lot of people, even hearing tracking mentioned makes them think, “Absolutely not. I can’t go there,” which is totally fine. I actually encourage not tracking. I think not tracking is probably the better option for more people.
With that avenue, I usually say, “Okay, this is going to seem slow and it might seem a bit funny at first, but how much or what foods do I need to eat for breakfast to get me to lunch or my mid-morning snack without being so hungry that I’m distracted or starving?” Then, how much do I need at my mid-morning snack to get to lunch without being hungry or distracted by hunger? Then, how much at lunch do I need to eat to get to my mid-afternoon snack?
Rather than trying to academically decide how much is enough or doing the math, take some time to look at what needs to happen with your food to get you from when you wake up to when you go to bed without experiencing distracting hunger. You want to get to your next meal or snack ready to eat, but not sitting there thinking, “Oh my God, how much longer until I get to eat?”
Broadly, when it comes to how much we should eat, those are the starting points. I listen to whoever is talking to me and explore which avenue might be best.
Kathryn: That’s a great point and a great way to frame it.
I think for some people, they may need that framework of having some way to count, especially if they slip into unintentional restriction. Some people can start trying too hard to eat only when they’re hungry and turn that into the “hunger-fullness diet,” or they stop before they get to any sort of heightened level of fullness.
In doing that, and trying to be too nuanced about listening to hunger and fullness, sometimes people can slip into unintentional restriction and really think, “Oh, I’m just listening to my body.” But then they look at their overall intake and it’s like, “Okay, you’re not getting enough food to really even feed a toddler so you need to look at increasing your intake.”
I like how you have different ways to frame it and help people ask, “How much do I need at this certain time of day that would carry me to the next time of day?” It helps break it down into manageable chunks. And then, at the end of the day, you’ll hopefully arrive at having nourished your body well enough.
I know neither of us are nutritionists, and if you need further help in that area, of course a nutritionist or dietitian could provide a good baseline and look at your energy levels, your age, and factors that affect metabolism to see uniquely how much you might need.
Calories and Adequate Eating
Kathryn: I know you and I both help people with this in a more general way. A lot of times, we find that people will come to us struggling with food noise, and if it is someone who is okay with tracking, we’ll look at it and it’s just not quite enough.
For me, I find that a lot of women I work with think that maybe 1,300, 1,400, or 1,500 calories is enough, and I do not think that’s enough in any shape or form. I rarely ever recommend any woman I work with going under 2,000. Men have higher calorie needs, and I find a lot of men are even trying to eat under 2,000 calories, and it’s just not enough food.
I know the calorie topic can be a little sensitive for people, but I think it is important to talk about because people could be out there saying, “Why am I struggling with food noise? Why is my brain always thinking about food?” But if you’re only eating in that range of 1,200 or 1,500 calories, it’s just not enough food, especially if you’re working out.
I know that you work with a lot of people in fitness, so what are your general thoughts on calories?
Marcus: For a start, a lot of people are getting their numbers from random apps or websites. I don’t know where their algorithms come from, but they’re wrong.
Any app or website that tells you that you should be on 1,200, 1,300, or 1,500 calories—I’m sorry, but the Minnesota Starvation Experiment put men on a diet they deemed semi-starvation, and that was around 1,500 calories. I think it may have even been more.
Kathryn: I thought it was 1,700 or 1,800. Either way, it’s starvation.
Marcus: And I know there will be a lot of women thinking, “Okay, well, that’s for a man.”
We’re different, but not that different. Any app or website that gives you a calorie target around or below that amount—especially if you’re training—I’m sorry, but no.
I think a lot of people might also be getting their calorie intake ideas from competitive bodybuilders or fitness influencers. Let’s face it, a lot of them are using performance-enhancing drugs, and a lot of them are coming in and out of very strict diets in order to get ready for photo shoots or competitions. They periodically dip very, very low in their calories, and sometimes they brag about it out of context. Not all of them are good at framing what they’re doing as part of a bigger picture.
Obviously everyone is different, so I can’t make exact recommendations. But if you’re physically active and consuming less than 2,000 calories, I have questions.
Eating More Can Often Mean Eating Less Overall
Kathryn: I totally agree.
I think women are scared to eat above 2,000 calories, but most women need it. We’re active, and just to do your normal daily functions and get up and do everything you need to do to live, much less exercise, you need more food most of the time than these apps tell you. I’ve put my own numbers into those apps and thought, “Whoa, I could never do that little. Is that real?”
I also like to remind people that when you add food, you may actually end up eating less than what you’re eating now.
What I mean is, if you’re trying to eat, let’s say, 1,500 calories, but then you’re having binge episodes and overeating, you’re not actually eating 1,500 calories. You’re probably eating much more overall. I know my restriction-plus-binge calories were way over 2,400 calories. It was probably in the range of 4,000 a day when you averaged it out. So me eating, let’s say, 2,500 calories would still have been less than what I was actually eating.
It can be helpful to really look at what you’re currently eating when you combine the restriction calories and the binge calories, and then try to come up with a reasonable amount for yourself that feels nourishing and doesn’t go to either extreme.
Marcus: Yes. If you are low-balling, a lot of people fall into this cycle of low-balling their calories and spending the vast majority of their waking hours with their attention on food.
They’re trying really hard and thinking, “I’m maintaining this really low calorie count. I’m doing it.” But then there will be these 10-, 15-, or 30-minute windows where they might lose control and eat a few things.
It’s really easy to go, “All right, that 15 minutes didn’t happen. I’m going to forget about it,” and then go back to essentially starving yourself—which is the thing that led to the loss of control in that short window of time. If we look at the course of a week, you may have had these handfuls of short windows where you were disconnected and just eating totally out of control.
But the vast majority of the time that you remember when thinking about that week is, “I spent that week trying really hard. I spent most of that week hungry. I spent most of that week thinking about nothing but how to stay under this limit.” So it creates this situation where you feel like, “I’m working my butt off. I’m suffering. I’m trying really hard, and nothing good is happening for me.”
It’s a lose-lose situation. It might be confronting or scary to take your daily intake, whether you’re tracking or not, up to an amount where you’re not actually dealing with hunger throughout the day. But if we look at the big picture, it’s going to work out better.
Kathryn: I think if we could sum up this quantity portion of our discussion, it’s that you probably need a little more food—or a lot more food—than you think you do.
Don’t be scared to add more food because when you add more food, it’s going to help with those out-of-control feelings and with that constant food noise. It’s going to help you feel more stable overall. And get further help in that area if you feel like you need it or truly don’t know how much is appropriate for you.
Marcus: For sure. If you feel really stuck, an eating-disorder-informed dietitian who’s going to take your experience into account might help.
Food Timing: Why Consistent Eating Matters
Kathryn: The next topic we’re going to address is eating timing.
This goes along with quantity as well, but it’s about not creating these long gaps for yourself where you’re not eating. You talked about having nice, consistent quantities that get you to your next meal, but if your next meal is eight hours away, that might be a pretty hard thing to do.
Eating consistently, eating throughout the day, and creating this feeling of safety within your body that it’s going to be nourished is extremely helpful in managing food noise.
Marcus: Absolutely.
If you find yourself after a meal thinking, “Okay, I feel physically full, but I want to keep eating for some other reason,” and you also know that if you do that, you’re going to end up not feeling so great, it’s much easier to stop if your next meal is only a couple of hours away.
You can think, “I’m good. I can eat again in another couple of hours. I don’t need to keep going right now and give myself a bad experience of this meal.” It’s so much easier to do that when your next meal is a few hours away rather than six, seven, or eight hours away.
Kathryn: There’s a calming effect of knowing your next meal is coming.
Even reminding yourself, “I’m going to eat again in a couple of hours. I can be okay. I can digest this food, and my body will be hungry again,” can be reassuring.
There is an appetite-stabilizing effect of consistent eating as well. It helps your appetite hormones regulate. If your body gets used to eating consistently, then you’ll naturally get hungry around those times. It helps you be more peaceful throughout the day because your hunger signals become more regular instead of very erratic.
If you try to go long periods without eating, then get super hungry and eat too much, and then don’t eat again, it can be very destabilizing to have that much inconsistency in your day.
Hunger and Fullness Cues May Take Time to Regulate
Marcus: You mentioned something really important in our last conversation about how it can take some time to invite regular hunger and fullness cues back.
You might start having regular meals and snacks and do that for a week, a couple of weeks, or even a month, and think, “I still don’t feel much different. I’m not hungry in the morning, but then I’m ravenous at night.” It can actually take some time and consistency with regular meals of decent sizes before your body really starts to dial in regular, moderate hunger and fullness cues again. I wanted to circle back to what you said last time because it’s really important.
Kathryn: Yes, you don’t want to just do it for one day. Let’s say you have consistent meals one day and think, “I still have food noise. I still think about food. It’s not working.”
It really takes some time and consistency. And it’s hard because, as we’ve talked about with the food environment and diet culture, there are a lot of messages out there saying that not eating for long periods of time is a good thing and that it actually helps reduce food noise. I have clients who say, “If I just never start eating, I’m fine.” But you can’t do that. It’s not physically possible for your body. You have to face food.
When you try not to face it and think that helps for almost an entire day, then when you finally face food, your body is so ravenous and desperately needing food that it’s going to be much harder to control yourself. Then you think, “I’m out of control.” Well, no. You just didn’t eat throughout the day. It can seem like a false sense of safety to avoid food altogether, but it’s simply not in the realm of possibility.
Marcus: So true.
I tell people often, I’ve been doing this work professionally for a really long time, and I know that if I let myself get really hungry, things are going to start feeling really hard really quickly.
It still happens sometimes. If I go down the rabbit hole of being really fixated on something for work and I don’t leave my desk from 9:00 a.m. until 2:00 p.m., I’m tearing myself away from my desk at 2:00 p.m. to drag myself downstairs for lunch. By the time I get down there, I’m thinking, “I want some biscuits, and then I want this, and then I want that.” And it’s like, oh—you’re hungry. It’s not weird to feel like that if you are hungry.
Obviously, these days I have better skills around food. I slow myself down, and I manage not to allow that to become some kind of disaster. But still, that feeling of, “Oh my God, I could eat the entire kitchen,” is not weird if you haven’t eaten for seven hours.
Kathryn: Exactly.
People think they’re broken or something is wrong with them when that happens, but it’s not anything wrong with you at all. It’s just basic survival mechanisms.
If we’re summarizing the timing portion of what we’re talking about, it’s simply that eating consistently is very stabilizing for the biology. In eating disorder clinics and therapy, the three-meal, two- or three-snack consistent eating plan has been used for a very long time. It’s not a magic cure that’s going to eliminate every urge to binge or eliminate all food noise, but it helps stabilize your appetite.
And not eating is not a solution to food noise.
Marcus: Amen.
Food Types: What Should You Eat to Reduce Food Noise?
Kathryn: Let’s move on to food types.
As you’re eating consistently and eating enough, people naturally say, “Okay, what do I eat that’s going to help with food noise?”
There’s definitely a lot of advice out there, and some of it can be helpful. People say, “Increase protein. That’ll help with satiety and help you feel full for longer.” People say, “Add fiber.”
I do think that stuff can be helpful as part of an overall strategy. No one thing is going to be a magic bullet. But there are also the extremes. People say eliminate carbs altogether, eliminate a certain food group altogether, and that’s going to make everything magically better.
We’re trying to stay in the middle here. Could certain strategies such as adding protein or adding fiber be helpful? Absolutely. But we’re trying to stay out of the extremes.
As far as food type, what do you find tends to be most helpful for people in terms of what they choose to eat?
Marcus: Usually a pretty even balance across the board.
People are going to have different preferences, and it’s one of the reasons I ask the question, “What do you need to eat at this meal to get you to your next snack or meal without being conspicuously hungry?”
I word that question really intentionally. I don’t say, “How much do you need to eat?” I say, “What do you need to eat?”
As we do little experiments with that and notice what goes on, we might notice that some foods are more satiating than others. There are some foods that might leave us feeling physically full but somehow still so dissatisfied after eating that we’re thinking, “I just want something. I don’t know why, but I’ve eaten to the point where I feel physically full, and now I just want. And I’m pretty sure what I want is Oreos.”
I used to see that a lot with people doing volume eating—having a bucket of salad for lunch with a chicken breast cut up in it. There’s nothing wrong with a chicken salad, but what do you need to eat in order to finish that meal and genuinely feel like, “I’m pretty good”?
And if we’re working to include certain foods or expand our repertoire of foods, you may add something that feels a bit challenging. Maybe you put a handful of Oreos on the side of your lunch. You might eat your lunch, eat your Oreos, and then feel like, “I could really keep going with that.”
But then we want to pause for a second because they’re Oreos. You could always keep going. They’re designed that way. That’s how they’re made. So pause for 10 or 15 minutes. How do I feel now? Do I still want some, or might I be able to wait until my next meal? I can have some more at my next meal if I want.
I know that when I say it like this, I’m making it sound in some ways much simpler than it is. Obviously, in practice, difficult feelings can come up. In practice, it’s harder. But this is what we aim to find our way toward experimenting with and practicing.
So not just, “How much should I eat?” But, “What do I need to eat?”
Balanced Meals and the Three Macronutrients
Kathryn: It is going to look different for each person, but I think across the board, we all need the three macronutrients.
We all need fat. We all need carbs. We all need protein. Having that baseline and trying to get that consistently throughout your day is really important and helps the body reduce feelings of deprivation. It helps reduce that feeling of, “I ate, but I still want something.”
If you’re having all three macronutrients in a meal, it’s not a perfect solution. You still may have some cravings. There can still be habitual elements there. But it does tend to stabilize your physiology. Each one of those macronutrients has a purpose.
There’s a lot of hype around protein lately as if that’s the magic thing. But if you just have protein, a lot of times, it leaves you wanting. You don’t get that sort of instant comfort or enjoyment or fueling from the carbohydrates or the satiation from the fats.
As much as you can, try to balance those three. I find that to be the most helpful, and that has been a staple of eating disorder treatment for a long time—getting those macronutrients every day and, as much as possible, at every meal. It’s not always going to be perfect. You’re not always going to be able to get them in every meal. But as much as you can. Would you agree with that?
Marcus: Yes.
I think it’s really interesting—morbidly interesting—that this kind of balanced approach, balanced meals and regular meals, has so much quality research and experience behind the fact that it is the most reliable way. And yet there are so many professionals out there who want to get really cute about giving you this new way to eat that might be life-changing for one out of a hundred people.
For the vast majority of people, when they get on these different approaches that start messing with things too much, there is this honeymoon period where it’s like, “Oh my God, this is different. I’ve never experienced anything like this.” But that honeymoon period doesn’t last. We end up falling off the wagon in one way or another. Then there’s this mindset of, “But that went really well while it was working. I just need to pull myself up by my bootstraps and get back to doing that.”
But that’s not how it works. Sustainability, and not having to white-knuckle your way through doing it, is one of the hallmarks of a successful approach. There is so much evidence behind this approach of balanced meals and regular meals and snacks, and yet people want to get cute about it.
Enjoyment and Satisfaction Matter Too
Kathryn: I know. And it’s sad because, like you said, some people can have those honeymoon periods and then get very latched onto that idea.
Maybe changing your eating reduced some of those habitual cues and reduced some of the more stimulating foods for a little while. But you can’t really keep yourself in a bubble forever as far as what you eat and what you’re exposed to.
Learning how to incorporate all the macronutrients and learning how to incorporate as wide a variety of foods as you can is really important.
We also wanted to make sure we talked about including foods you enjoy. That’s super helpful when it comes to food noise.
There’s a lot out there saying that something is wrong with you if you think about food, something is wrong with you if you enjoy food, and you should be really stoic around food and only see it as fuel.
But I think that can have the opposite effect of actually increasing food noise because you’re not getting that enjoyment in your life. When you think about food types, don’t just think about what fuels you. Also think about what you actually like to eat.
Marcus: Yes.
My wife and I are looking at potentially moving. We’re looking at getting a new place, maybe moving to a different area. We live in Devon in the UK, and we’ve been driving around looking at different places. My wife gets really frustrated because she feels like there are so many different places in Devon that she would like to move. I know it’s a nice problem to have, but there are so many nice places that she’s like, “I can’t decide.”
On our way back from wherever we’ve been looking at places, she’ll say, “I need you to stop at M&S because I need to get a bag of chips that I can angry-eat because I’m frustrated and I can’t make a decision.” I’m like, “Okay, sweetie, cool.” We each get a packet of chips, go home, and sit on the couch. That’s been a thing for the last few weeks. And it’s fun. Chips are delicious.
I’ve said to people I work with before that some of my meals are a little functional and a little bland in the name of not putting pressure on myself to cook some kind of Michelin-star experience at every meal.
But I know something about myself, and this is where it’s important that everyone knows themselves. I know that if I don’t have a nice dinner to look forward to, I kind of lose the will to live a little bit. I can do a slightly blander lunch because my mind is on work and I’m occupied. It’s fine. It will still be a decent quantity of food and it will still keep me satiated. But I know that if I try to do something really bland and “functional” for dinner, that will affect my mental health.
Kathryn: That makes a lot of sense.
It’s about finding that balance for yourself as far as enjoyment. Not every meal is going to be this five-star amazing experience because we all have to live a life, and life is demanding and challenging. Sometimes meals are just functional and convenient. But try to insert pleasure where you can, allow that with permission, and know that it doesn’t mean something is wrong with you. That’s actually a sign of health.
Bringing pleasure in where you can, within the context of foods that work for you and that keep you satisfied until your next meal, can go a long way in turning down the volume on food noise. If you’re constantly depriving yourself of pleasure, of course pleasurable foods are going to look good. But when you can consciously bring that in and consciously choose it for yourself, it helps suppress that response.
You feel satisfied. So what is there to rebel against? If you’re satisfying yourself in your meals, there’s not this urge to think, “I have to go sneak and get some satisfaction over here,” because you’re already getting it.
Marcus: One hundred percent.
Should You Eliminate Certain Foods to Reduce Food Noise?
Kathryn: In this discussion about types of food, we also wanted to make sure we talked about the idea of eliminating foods or not.
We’ve talked about including all the macronutrients. I think that’s pretty much true across the board for everybody.
Of course, there may be specific health conditions where someone can’t digest something or has a medical reason to avoid a food. That’s not included in what we’re talking about. Obviously, listen to your doctor for things like that.
But within the context of carbohydrates, for example, there’s a lot of advice out there saying that if you just cut out sugar 100 percent, you won’t struggle with food noise. Or if you cut out another food 100 percent, you won’t struggle with food noise.
This is a hard topic. We’ve both seen that, in some contexts for some people, it can be helpful to put aside a certain food if it’s causing too much distress. But as far as what I’ve seen in the research, it’s not a magic cure for food noise to eliminate a food. In fact, in a lot of cases, it can make things worse for people. So it’s a nuanced topic.
What are your thoughts on eliminating foods?
Marcus: I love that you mentioned the research because research does back up this idea that eliminating one particular food group is not the final solution for food noise.
Personally, I remember when I was trying to eliminate carbohydrates in my twenties. I would go through periods of time where it felt like, “I’m not struggling without carbohydrates. I’m leaving them out. It’s fine. I don’t crave anything. This is incredible. I don’t know why everyone isn’t doing this.” But then it would all come crashing down within a few months, or however long it took. Like I said before, there was this honeymoon period of feeling like, “Oh my God, I eliminated carbohydrates and suddenly all my problems have disappeared.”
It was really just a slightly different diet that gave me the feeling of something being different enough to keep me occupied for a few months before I wanted all the same things again. It’s so easy to think, “If I just get rid of all the foods that I struggle with, then problem solved.”
As much as that makes sense on paper, if that worked for people, I’d be telling them to do it.
When Temporarily Putting Aside a Food May Help
Kathryn: I totally agree.
Now again, back to the nuance…
During recovery, as you’re ending these harmful habits around food, eating in the way that works for you and feels the most stabilizing for you could include putting aside certain overstimulating foods. Again, not an entire food group and not all carbohydrates, but perhaps certain packaged, processed, overstimulating foods. Will that eliminate your food noise for the rest of your life? No.
Could it help turn it down enough so that you can get some momentum and get some stability? Sure, it could. I do work with people who do that and have success with it. It’s just that sometimes this is promoted across the board as, “You have food noise. Never eat processed food again. You’ll be fine.”
It’s just not necessarily the world we live in. I also think recommending that across the board is not helpful, or making people think the reason they struggle is simply because they eat sugar. I’ve seen people who do so much better when they incorporate a dessert at night, when they incorporate the foods they enjoy that are processed, and when they give themselves permission.
It truly is not a one-size-fits-all solution. And it’s sad because you look online and it can seem like it is one: “Don’t eat the food, and you’ll be fine.”
Marcus: The reason why that is so prevalent online is because it’s a really easy idea to sell.
They’re saying, “I’ve got this really simple idea that’s going to solve all your problems.” That’s what we’re all looking for. We’re looking for something simple that’s going to make some of our biggest pain and suffering points go away. So we think, “Okay, cool. It’s simple. Fine.” Then, when you’ve gone through the honeymoon phase and fallen off the wagon on the other end, it’s easy to put the blame back on yourself for that diet not working.
You think, “That person knew what they were talking about. This worked for a little while and it was great, but it’s on me.” That’s what that whole system functions on—that cycle. Those ideas are online because they’re an easy sell, not because they actually work for the majority of people long term.
Add More Nourishing Foods Instead of Creating More Rules
Kathryn: And it’s not that there isn’t value in taking a look at the quality of what you’re eating and trying to make it more stabilizing.
Any of us in this modern food environment, if we ate highly stimulating processed foods for every meal, would probably experience some disruption to our appetite regulation systems. It probably would increase food noise.
So it’s not that there’s no value in looking at this. There is value in eating more whole foods in terms of food noise. There is value in not having every meal be Oreos. If you ate Oreos for every meal, your body would not be getting what it needs and your body would be screaming for food.
So can too much processed food and not enough whole food increase food noise? Sure. But that doesn’t mean we all need to eliminate processed foods.
Marcus: We need to add the good things more than we’re trying to remove things.
Often, when people get on these oversimplified diets, they genuinely feel better. They think, “Oh my God, I feel so much better.”
But within that broad, sweeping implementation of that diet, we may have temporarily dropped our intake of several other things that were contributing to us feeling a bit bad. We might have been able to reduce or moderate those things a little bit without such aggressive, broad, sweeping rules.
No one is saying that eating more whole foods is not going to help you. It is. It absolutely will. We’re not anti-health here.
Kathryn: We’re definitely not saying eat processed foods for every meal.
But when you eliminate them altogether, that can have the effect of increasing food noise, especially when you eventually have them again because you haven’t had them in so long. They feel really stimulating. You haven’t had that practice. You haven’t built that ability to have them in moderation. So you have them, food noise increases, and you think, “That proves that I’m not in control. That proves that these foods cause food noise.”
But if you learn to incorporate them in moderation and get that practice, they can lose their power over you over time. I know both of us have had experiences with clients who had foods they thought they were powerless against, and then eventually those foods are in their house and they forget the foods are even there because their brain has learned that it’s safe. They learn that they are okay, even with these foods around.
Creating a More Stable and Peaceful Relationship With Food
Kathryn: There are a lot of complex pieces to what we’re talking about, but I hope this discussion has helped you learn how to think about quantity, timing, and food type, and really work to find out what makes the most sense to you.
What feels best in your body?
What nourishes you?
What keeps you feeling full?
What keeps you satisfied?
All of that can contribute to bringing down the noise enough so that it doesn’t feel intrusive and it doesn’t feel like it’s taking over your life anymore.
Marcus, do you have any final thoughts on the topic?
Marcus: I think we’re good. Moderation is challenging in practice, but that doesn’t mean it’s not something worth working toward.
Kathryn: Absolutely.
I hope this conversation helps you create a steadier foundation in your eating that supports your recovery from bingeing and also supports your brain in releasing the hyper-focus on food.
If you want to hear more from Marcus, he has a podcast called Strong Not Starving, and you can also learn more about working directly with him through his website.
This is the end of the Food Noise series. I hope the series has given you some ideas that you can put into practice to help yourself feel more peaceful around food.
Do you need more help as you stop binge eating?
Free Inspiration Booklet – The booklet contains 31 daily messages to help you stay focused and motivated each day as you let go of binge eating.
One-on-one Coaching – Book a 45-minute private and highly personalized session with Kathryn Hansen. You will learn to change your thinking, uncover what is holding you back, and get on a path to complete freedom from food issues.
Group Coaching – Includes 4 group coaching calls per week with Kathryn. You’ll also get access to a forum for encouragement and accountability, and course access.
Brain over Binge Course – Self-paced online lessons (plus an app) for only $18.99/month. Includes over 125 tracks to listen to that give you the information and answers you need as you end binge eating.
Brain over Binge Books – Get Brain over Binge and the Brain over Binge Recovery Guide on Amazon and Audible.